Francis Maude has now finished giving evidence to the Lords Constitution committee
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Summary:
- The committee discusses the prospect of making civil servants more accountable including calling for civil servants (junior and senior) to give evidence to select committees and possibly disclosing details of what responsibilities they were assigned by the minister of their department.
- Francis Maude stresses that the current Civil Service system works but needs reform and can work better.
- On whether or not civil servants should provide specific details about their departments Heywood stresses that it is the of the civil servant to provide confidential advice to ministers and not break that confidentiality.
- Lord Butler makes the point that a problem with the current system is that ministers are being moved around departments too often making it difficult to pinpoint who exactly is accountable.
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Maude: The role of a special adviser is not to provide subject expertise, if that’s needed then the department should provide it.
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Maude: "Special Advisers come in all shapes and sizes and come with different skills".
He adss that from his experience not all of them have a "media" background necessarily and it's a very small part of what special advisers do.
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Baroness Jay: The fact that Parliament is asking for improvement and yet there is no precise way in how that dialogue should be carried forward
Baroness Jay adds that the formal Parliamentary involvement with Civil Service reform is turning the issue into something of a live issue.
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He says that there are still huge advantages with the British system and that the reform plans are to help make the system work better "and it needs to work better".
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Committee chair Baroness Jay asks what was it about the Australian system that attracts him. She also cites the US system where politicisation is built into the system.
Maude: There's a stronger sense of accountability to official head of department to the minister and seems to be worth exploring.
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Maude: I genuinely don’t have a very strong view about it and would be equally relaxed about former ministers doing the same, they should continue being accountable for what they do even after they’ve left office.
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Maude: I think interesting area is the balance between ministers being accountable to Parliament and the extent in which thy have the ability to manage the performance their department.
He adds that the idea that ministers should feel accountable but can't choose who works for them feels wrong.
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Maude: Most of what ministers do in their daily lives is not about party politics it's about driving through a programme.
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Maude says he wants to live in a world were officials give very candid advice to ministers and were ministers seek it but are not necessarily obliged to take it.
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Maude disagrees with Lord Pannick's assertion that civil servants not giving detailed information to the select committee isn't helpful.
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Maude: I think the advice civil servants give to ministers should be private.
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Lord Pannick reiterates an earlier question about civil servant witnesses to the select committee.
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Maude: (on appointment of civil servants) "I know of nothing that says as a matter of law a choice on merit cannot take place if a politician was involved in the choice."
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Maude: "I'm always open to invitations to be more radical"
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Lord Powell: "This is more about Parliament wanting more power"
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Maude: I don’t think anything in our Civil Service reform plan is revolutionary.
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Maude: There were questions around the ability of ministers to decide on the shape and personnel in their department and we have made some proposals in the Civil Service reform plan to increase the ability of ministers to influence choice of permanent secretaries (with strict guidelines to avoid politicisation).
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Francis Maude has taken his place.
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Sir Jeremy Heywood and Sir Bob Kerslake have finished giving evidence to the Lords Constitution committee
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Heywood that there is a tendency to dive into projects.
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Kerslake: Ultimately the accounting officer should take responsibility for how things are done in their department.
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Lord Crickhowell notes that projects are becoming increasingly complicated and that there is some reluctance from civil servants to do jobs and employ consultants from outside to do these jobs.
He asks if it would be of benefit to have some of these “major players” to play a part in project management.
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Heywood: Complete myth to think ministers aren't involved in policy implementation and should be involved.
Heywood points out that “policy” and “implementation” aren’t entirely separate entities are mutually reinforcing and that ministers should be actively involved with policy implementation and some are.
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Bob Kerslake stops short of endorsing or opposing a system whereby ministers can appoint their own senior civil servants.
Kerslake: What I think our role is now is to find a resolution between those two positions.
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Kerslake: I think the current system is quite flexible and responsible to the interests of ministers.
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Kerslake: I don't think civil servants seek out or shy away from the limelight, I think they should be comfortable with transparency.
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Heywood: Most civil servant take select committee appearances seriously and spend hours preparing for them
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Lord Powell: "Will civil servants be more exposed?"
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Kerslake: "People are saying a change is needed but there isn't a consistency about what change is needed."
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Heywood: "All governments in some sense are a coalition...often it's the Treasury versus the rest or two departments against the other."
He adds that as a civil servant your responsibility is there to help find a compromise or think about how laterally or rationally a decision can be reached
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The panel ask Heywood and Kerslake if it is appropriate for civil servants when giving evidence to select committees should provide details on what specific duties and tasks they were assigned by ministers.
Heywood: Our obligation is to support our ministers and provide confidential advice to ministers and not break that confidentiality.
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Heywood and Kerslake rule out the idea of a "constitutional check" or "constraint".
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Lord Shaw: "To what extent does the civil service act as a constitutional check on the actions of the ministers?"
He notes that civil servants are now appearing before committees and before the press more often than before.
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Kerslake: "Civil servants should be responsible to ministers and ministers responsible to Parliament"
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Sir Jeremy Heywood (Cabinet Secretary) and Sir Bob Kerslake (head of the Civil Service) have taken their places
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Lord Butler has finished his evidence.
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The system has changed to get permanent secretaries to appear at select committees. But adds that if civil servants are to be held accountable you need to find out what specific task was delegated to them by the relevant minister "that is not an easy task to do".
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Lord Butler: I think one of the difficulties is that where there are big projects we move our civil servants and ministers around too often which makes it difficult to hold our ministers and civil servants to account.
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Lord Butler says that select committees can and do see civil servants at all levels. He is critical of the public accounts committee and says he doesn't know why the Public Accounts committee only summons permanent secretaries and never summon ministers.
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On the participation of Parliament with civil service accountability he cites the Osmotherley rules. The rules set out detailed guidance for civil servants giving evidence before select committees.
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Lord Crickhowell makes the point that Parliament has to be involved with civil service reforms on accountability and asks Lord Butler how could this be done and what might be the way forward.
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Sees no objection to looking at other models of accountability around the world citing his visit to New Zealand when he was Cabinet secretary.
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Butler: "Civil service accountability cannot override the responsibility to their minister"
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Lord Butler gives an opening statement to the committee. He says he regards ministerial accountability as a constitutional and statutory principle and that civil servants exercise those powers on behalf of those ministers.
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The committee will hear first from Lord Butler of Brockwell and former Cabinet Secretary and Head of the Home Civil Service, 1988–98
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