Three Christian MPs are trying to overturn an advertising ban on claiming that ‘God can heal’.
Gary Streeter (Con), Gavin Shuker (Lab) and Tim Farron (Lib Dem) say that they want the Advertising Standards Authority to produce "indisputable scientific evidence" to say that prayer does not work - otherwise they will raise the issue in Parliament.
The MPs wrote to dispute the ruling after the outpouring of support and prayer for football star Fabrice Muamba.
Last month, a Christian group in Bath were banned from using leaflets that said: "NEED HEALING? GOD CAN HEAL TODAY!... We believe that God loves you and can heal you from any sickness."
The ASA said the claims were misleading and could discourage people from seeking essential medical treatment.
The full letter sent by Christians in Parliament to the ad watchdog is below.
Rt Hon Lord Smith of Finsbury
Chairman, Advertising Standards Agency
21st March 2012
We are writing on behalf of the all-party Christians in Parliament group in Westminster and your ruling that the Healing On The Streets ministry in Bath are no longer able to claim, in their advertising, that God can heal people from medical conditions.
We write to express our concern at this decision and to enquire about the basis on which it has been made. It appears to cut across two thousand years of Christian tradition and the very clear teaching in the Bible. Many of us have seen and experienced physical healing ourselves in our own families and churches and wonder why you have decided that this is not possible.
On what scientific research or empirical evidence have you based this decision?
You might be interested to know that I (Gary Streeter) received divine healing myself at a church meeting in 1983 on my right hand, which was in pain for many years. After prayer at that meeting, my hand was immediately free from pain and has been ever since. What does the ASA say about that? I would be the first to accept that prayed for people do not always get healed, but sometimes they do. That is all this sincere group of Christians in Bath are claiming.
It is interesting to note that since the traumatic collapse of the footballer Fabrice Muamba the whole nation appears to be praying for a physical healing for him. I enclose some media extracts. Are they wrong also and will you seek to intervene?
We invite your detailed response to this letter and unless you can persuade us that you have reached your ruling on the basis of indisputable scientific evidence, we intend to raise this matter in Parliament.
Yours sincerely,
Gary Streeter MP (Con)
Chair, Christians in Parliament
Gavin Shuker MP (Labour)
Vice Chair, Christians in Parliament
Tim Farron (Lib-Dem)
Vice Chair, Christians in Parliament
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Comments
Derek North / March 26 2012 10:25am
These MP's are dangerous and should be removed from office.
Jules / March 26 2012 11:58am
It's a small step from this to "you don't need an NHS, you just need to pray harder"...
Seriously, I always thought it was the duty of advertisers to be able to back up their claims. Of course if you're talking about faith-based healing, all the current evidence that it's worthless will be dismissed with some facile remark that "God cannot be made to perform on demand".
Dave Page / March 26 2012 12:01pm
Fortunately, controlled experiments into the efficacy of healing prayer have been conducted, which demonstrate there is no significant benefit from the "treatment".
Chris / March 26 2012 12:49pm
Why has Nadine Dorries not jumped on this bandwagon yet? Is she on holiday this week?
anarchic teapot / March 26 2012 12:50pm
It's up to them to prove their claims, not the other way around.
*settles back, reaches for popcorn*
Should be interesting.
anarchic teapot / March 26 2012 12:51pm
It's up to them to prove their claims, not the other way around.
*settles back, reaches for popcorn*
Should be interesting.
Zigfield Benzene / March 26 2012 12:52pm
Sincerely hope that govt can track down those who prayed for Muamba's collapse and try them using this thinking.
Mark Brewer / March 26 2012 12:53pm
The ASA needs to write back very simply: "What scientific research or empirical evidence do you have to the contrary?"
Game, set and match.
Duncan Moore / March 26 2012 12:54pm
What a shame to see Tim Farron's name in there, he'd always seemed like a reasonably person but evidently I was mistaken...
In any case, there are papers which quite definitively show that prayer is no more effective than placebo. These MPs have done nothing more than make fools of themselves.
Paul McGlade / March 26 2012 12:54pm
"It is interesting to note that since the traumatic collapse of the footballer Fabrice Muamba the whole nation appears to be praying for a physical healing for him"
I live here. I'm not praying for him.
The complaint is therefore based on a false assertion (or "false witness" in Biblical terminology) and should be dismissed out of hand.
kevin / March 26 2012 12:55pm
You cannot prove a negative. You cannot prove that blood letting doesnt work only that there is no evidence that it does work. They should try and provide evidence that prayer does work.
Andrew Wray / March 26 2012 12:59pm
what have the so called Christian MPs come to, trying to sell the "healing power of god" like snake oil salesmen, methinks they should do a bit of informative reading (of the bible). I am a Christian myself and am appalled by this false notion that god will heal you if you only ask him...... tell that to Job "WHAT A LOAD OF TWADDLE!!!"
Prosthetic Head / March 26 2012 1:01pm
It's my opinion that all medical claims should be subject to the same standards of evidence, no exception should be made for religion, tradition, spirituality, faith, intuition, etc, etc. Medical claims should be backed up with rigorous statistical evidence of efficacy & safety.
PS:
For anyone who is interested, here is a link to a rigorously conducted study of the efficacy of intercessory prayer in cardiac bypass patients.
http://www.templeton.org/pdfs/press_releases/060407STEP_paper.pdf
The study was funded by the Templeton foundation and conducted by qualified medical persons, some at organisations which promote various forms of 'spiritual healing'. It found that prayer had no measurable effect on the rate of complications or mortality following bypass surgery.
Hitchens Admirer / March 26 2012 1:02pm
That which can be proved without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
Alan Newman / March 26 2012 1:04pm
I'd happily sit down with these three and demonstrate that there is no statistically significant correlation between prayer and healing.
Just because one person is 'healed' it proves nothing compared to the millions whose prayers fall on deaf ears
Liam / March 26 2012 1:04pm
http://skepticalmentality.com/2011/03/06/the-power-of-prayer/
Daviona / March 26 2012 1:05pm
And in turn, they should should provide independently peer reviewed evidence to show that it does work. Can't wait for that...
Chris / March 26 2012 1:18pm
"there are papers which quite definitively show that prayer is no more effective than placebo"
Next they'll be reclassifying faith healing as homeopathy
Andy S / March 26 2012 1:21pm
Lord! I am affected by a bald patch...
Alex / March 26 2012 1:26pm
Science. Doesn't. Work. That. Way.
I know I'm preaching to the choir (hurr hurr) but this is annoying to me. You can't prove a negative and if you want to make the claim "God can heal" you have to prove it's true. That should be the first thing these MPs are told, but it probably won't be said at all.
Duckorange / March 26 2012 1:31pm
Proof, indeed, that political allegiance is no bar to stupidity.
Dave Cross / March 26 2012 1:31pm
"the whole nation appears to be praying for a physical healing for [Muamba]"
That's not the case. There's a significant proportion of the population who weren't praying for Muamba as we knew it was a bloody waste of time.
We have, however, been really impressed by the medical science that has been used to treat Muamba.
Christian Eaton / March 26 2012 1:44pm
I don't even know who Fabrice Muamba is, let alone prayed for his "physical healing"!
Looks like it's time to dig out "God Hates Amputees" again...
Isn't it incredible how, throughout history, the list of ailments that "God" can cure (after being asked to through prayer, of course) exactly matches the list of ailments curable through modern medicine?! Coincidence? Or proof of divine intervention into scientific medical research? I for one think the best way to find out which is true is to let a load of politicians discuss it in parliament!
Iain Harrison / March 26 2012 1:46pm
That's jaw-dropping. I'm stunned that people so stupid can be in office.
Here's a link to just one of the many surveys that proved repeatedly that PRAYER DOESN'T WORK under any circumstances!
http://www.patheos.com/blogs/friendlyatheist/2009/05/15/study-concludes-intercessory-prayer-doesnt-work-christians-twist-the-results/
And while I'm at it, here's another one: http://www.disinfo.com/2011/12/with-666000-in-federal-research-money-scientists-determined-prayer-could-not-heal-aids/
I agree with Derek there: these MPs are dangerous and should be removed from office.
keeps71 / March 26 2012 1:47pm
Interesting to note that Gary Streeter had a hip-replacement operation recently. Why? Did he not pray for it to heal? Either you believe in the power of prayer or you don't. Hypocrisy and a waste of everyone's time. An absolute disgrace that these people are allowed anywhere near the reigns of power.
Ian / March 26 2012 1:47pm
It wasn't God that saved Muamba, it was me, with my magic stick. And unless these three clowns can provide INDISPUTABLE SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE that this is not true, then they all owe me a massive apology.
Also, I see they haven't bothered to mention all the doctors, nurses and the medical science that treated Muamba. In other words, the people that actually did save him.
Graham / March 26 2012 1:48pm
Face, meet Palm. Palm, meet Face.
Is this the quality of intellect that we have amongst our elected representatives? If any of these clowns were my MP, I'd be very worried.
"We say God heals, but it's not up to us to prove it. It's up to you to prove that he doesn't".
Staggering. Just staggering.
Tom / March 26 2012 1:51pm
The Christians are the ones making the assertion, so its them who have to back it up with evidence. Otherwise the ASA will have to prove that pretty much anything is not true, like unicorns can heal you. Disprove that!
Adrian Short / March 26 2012 1:52pm
People who claim that prayer can cure illnesses should adopt it as their sole form of treatment.
Why mess around with drugs and doctors when you can have an omnipotent interventionist god sort it all out for you? The chap created the universe. Your stroke or heart attack should be no problem at all.
If they don't have this much faith in their own beliefs I can see no reason why anyone else should.
Gavin Deichen / March 26 2012 1:54pm
I love their thinking here! Presumably the same rule should apply to all advertising. So if I want to advertise my anti-ageing cream which actually makes you 10 years younger I can go right ahead because nobody has any evidence that my product is useless?
They might have had a shot by going in on a general religious note; if the ASA bans this, they should ban anything that's not within the realms of science, they could perhaps argue. I.e., are they going to ban advertisements of transubstantiation? What about claims that adherence will allow the faithful passage to heaven? They could at least create a bit of a mess that way. Their current approach is completely stupid.
Ron Graves / March 26 2012 1:58pm
Mr. Streeter, I have no idea what the ASA would say about your sudden lack of pain, but there is no hard evidence that anyone has ever been healed by a fairy tale featuring a mythical being.
There is, though, a large body of evidence confirming the existence and efficacy of the Placebo Effect, which can be remarkably powerful, and doesn't require a misguided belief in a fictional supreme being.
Day Howarth / March 26 2012 2:03pm
Right then. I propose a double-blind experiment. We get 100 people suffering from cancer, stop all medical treatment and split them into two goups. We pray for the healing of everyone in Group A but not Group B. Give it a month. I guarantee Group A will not be any healthier than the patients being left alone.
Tom / March 26 2012 2:04pm
The Christians are the ones making the assertion, so its them who have to back it up with evidence. Otherwise the ASA will have to prove that pretty much anything is not true, like unicorns can heal you. Disprove that!
Ron Graves / March 26 2012 2:09pm
Mr. Streeter, I have no idea what the ASA would say about your sudden lack of pain, but there is no hard evidence that anyone has ever been healed by a fairy tale featuring a mythical being.
There is, though, a large body of evidence confirming the existence and efficacy of the Placebo Effect, which can be remarkably powerful, and doesn't require a misguided belief in a fictional supreme being.
Tom Evans / March 26 2012 2:10pm
I really do worry about the intelligence of MPs. Can they not tell the difference between, on the one hand worship,prayer, religious observance, and on the other hand cynical hand scam artists fraudulently cashing in.
NS / March 26 2012 2:12pm
We have freedom of belief and speech. If people want to believe in the power of prayer then that is there right to do so. We are suposedly an intelligent nation who can make informed decisions for otherselves so when presented with the idea that prayer can heal surely we should be able to make our own informed choices on wether we personally want to belief it.
Paul Parkinson / March 26 2012 2:16pm
Can we get inoculated against this kind of insanity?
What ARE these people on?
What next? Exorcism against demons for the mentally ill?
Carrying posies against the plague?
The ASA got this ruling spot on. Extraordinary claims need extraordinary evidence.
One pair of skilled hands, trained for seven years to become a qualified doctor, can and does do more than a million pairs of hands praying.
Quack medicine (such as this) is outlawred for a reason. It doesn't work, preys on the vulnerable and often times does far more harm than good.
longpete / March 26 2012 2:34pm
We're used to seeing such crazy lunacy from right-wing Christain nut-jobs in the USA. To see that there are UK MPs who are as un-hinged is really, really sad.
80s / March 26 2012 2:35pm
How long would he have survived if the highly trained paramedics hadn't immediately performed cpr and shock paddles on him for 2 hours while rushing him to a state of the art hospital?
James / March 26 2012 2:37pm
Well praying for his hip replacement didn't work http://www.garystreeter.co.uk/news/69/58/Messag-from-Gary.html
longpete / March 26 2012 2:39pm
Any medicine has to go through a long and rigorous testing procedure before its manufacturers are allowed to claim that it has properties to heal such-and-such an ailment.
If these MPs wish to put their claims though the same rigorous tests, and if they succeed, then they can make the same sorts of claim.
Simples.
NS / March 26 2012 2:41pm
We have freedom of belief and speech. If people want to believe in the power of prayer then that is there right to do so. We are suposedly an intelligent nation who can make informed decisions for otherselves so when presented with the idea that prayer can heal surely we should be able to make our own informed choices on wether we personally want to belief it.
James / March 26 2012 2:43pm
Well praying for his hip replacement didn't work http://www.garystreeter.co.uk/news/69/58/Messag-from-Gary.html
Andy Channelle / March 26 2012 2:44pm
I have burns on my legs. When I was a child I went to one of the huge ministries of Billy Graham in a football stadium. He singled me out and said I would be healed of my wounds and pain and the whole stadium prayed for me.
30 years later, I'm still in pain, still burned.
Sounds like good proof to me.
Darren Hayes / March 26 2012 2:45pm
Utterly astounding that utter spanners like these get elected. Let's hope these 3 loons are ousted at the next election.
Alan Henness / March 26 2012 2:52pm
I can't decide:
*face-palm*
or
*head-desk*
Perhaps I should pray for divine guidance...
On a more practical note, I'd have thought that the three MPs would have taken the time to read and understand the ASA's CAP Code and guidance before making fools of themselves.
Sam / March 26 2012 3:07pm
I don't have a problem with God, it's his fan club I can't stand. They should scientifically prove it does work, at least it would keep them occupied for a while.
Jake / March 26 2012 3:12pm
Looks like some people (even the people commenting with derision on this page) still don't understand logic or burden of proof.
Dave / March 26 2012 3:38pm
Surely advertising needs to be based on proof that a product or service DOES work. Without such data, any service or product could be advertised without check.
We're already fed up with politicians lying to people, and we don't want advertisers to be able to do the same.
These members of Parliament are wrong and could do a lot of harm to society if they get their way.
Ross / March 26 2012 3:39pm
Oh the irony ! Asking for a scientific proof for a negative.
It's disturbing to think that people like these, with no basic scientific knowledge hold positions of power!
Ben / March 26 2012 3:41pm
Nice to see our MPs have priorities in order.
Chris Shaw / March 26 2012 3:43pm
Go to Youtube and search Holy Spirit breaks out at a football game
Steven / March 26 2012 3:47pm
Is it April Fool's Day already? Please, someone tell me that this is a spoof/wind-up?? Please?
Zoe / March 26 2012 3:54pm
So following this line of thought, if we just sit here and pray for all the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, they'll all come back scratch-free?? What a joke, MPs have better things to do...
Stewart / March 26 2012 3:54pm
I'm loving this bit
"You might be interested to know that I (Gary Streeter) received divine healing myself at a church meeting in 1983 on my right hand, which was in pain for many years. After prayer at that meeting, my hand was immediately free from pain and has been ever since. What does the ASA say about that?"
An MP wrote that. As "proof" of his point. An MP. Wrote that.
I had a sore throat and I kept smoking. My throat got better. Ero smoking cures sore throats.Not in every case granted. But its a medical breakthrough
Sure there's reams of so called "evidence" that goes against my thesis. But it happened to me, so deal with that science. In your face!
Endecroix / March 26 2012 3:57pm
Maybe they should read this Cochrane review:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19370557
Matthew / March 26 2012 3:59pm
What is more concerning is the fact that there are 3 politicians who don't understand the burden of proof.
Paul C / March 26 2012 4:03pm
Several people mentioned the Templeton experiment into the power of prayer on 1,802 patients - http://goo.gl/kZKgY
Note the other finding that "... receiving intercessory prayer was associated with a higher incidence of complications" - so be careful who you pray for!
Someone tell our MPs "It is not one swalowe that bryngeth in somer" - Erasmus 1539
Danie / March 26 2012 4:04pm
Just emailed Farron to ask what scientific or empirical evidence he has to the contrary.
Will be intrigued to see his response.
Geoff / March 26 2012 4:08pm
''On what scientific research or empirical evidence have you based this decision?''
Just ask James Randi!
griff / March 26 2012 4:19pm
sure this must be an an early april fool ?
Jeff Barber / March 26 2012 4:26pm
Christians in parliment? Sorry, the last time I looked, a religious denomination was not a requirement for being a minister, unless we have become America overnight and no-one told me.
Anyone who is willing to suspend reality to support their own "spiritual healing" experiences in favour of medical science and reasoned logic do not deserve to be in a position of authority, let alone permitted to publicise their religious evangelism.
I assume that Gary Streeter can provide medical proof of his hand injury and the subsequent "healing" that took place?
ROss / March 26 2012 4:27pm
Prove Santa doesn't exist, same stupid logic! "God can heal you" is more likely to cause damage than not. I believe in unicorns but I don't let them get in the way of the real world.
Mik Stanmore / March 26 2012 4:37pm
I would like you to provide details of scientific research and some empirical evidence please.
In the meantime here's an anecdote about my hand.
James Lewis / March 26 2012 4:39pm
"Many of us have seen and experienced physical healing ourselves in our own families and churches"... and if any one of you could show that to be true it would change the world, but since you can't... lets keep your imaginary friend out of politics and stop making unsubstantiated claims.
Gillan Scott / March 26 2012 4:40pm
Irrespective of what you might think about claims of divine healing, the work by the ASA was sloppy and it is quite right that they are challenged on this. Did they actually make any attempt to find out if any claims of healing by Bath Healing on the Streets are valid. Judging by the response by those involved, I would have to say that the answer is no.
Phil / March 26 2012 4:48pm
Well I'm grateful that these three have the courage to stand for what they believe. I wouldn't want to berate them for that. And I think it's important that people with the capacity for visionary belief hold office as MPs in our country at this time. Whenever anyone offers healing of any kind, medical, faith, alternative, it must be done sensitively, respecting the recipient as a human being not just a medical system. We're better at that than we were a few decades ago. The HOTS group look to me like they're trying to do that.
Matt Penfold / March 26 2012 5:02pm
First, you are not applying the concept of the null hypothesis. The null hypothesis states that something is not to be accepted as being correct unless and until there is evidence that it is correct. In this case no evidence has ever been produced that shows that prayer is effective. One flawed study showed the opposite effect, that prayer results in poorer outcomes, but since the study is widely considered be to seriously flawed is not cited very often.
Second, you are wilfully ignoring the many studies that show pray makes no difference to health outcomes. Given the amount of evidence that exists that shows pray does not work, the ASA was quite right to rule that you cannot claim pray heals.
Ralph / March 26 2012 5:17pm
I agree with Derek.
Kei / March 26 2012 7:52pm
And once again the religious fanatics have once again failed to notice that the scientific principle is based on Burden Of Proof. NOT Burden Of Disproof, or Burden Of Circumstancial Evidence With No Real Corroborating Evidence. It isn't up to science to prove that praying doesn't work, it's up to them to prove, and by that I mean actually prove, with real tested scientific method, not just "It done worked for me!" type stories. Otherwise, what is there to stop everyone from producing anything they want, claiming it cures everything then citing the lack of evidence for Prayers effectiveness as a precedent for being able to make claims without evidence.
Airazz / March 26 2012 9:27pm
Why are these people MPs in the first place? Let them stay in power and we will return to Middle Ages.
On a related note, would anyone like to try and prove that His Noodliness, The Flying Spaghetti Monster can't heal illnesses?
Phil / March 26 2012 9:29pm
"Christians in Parliament" - so you got a bunch of elected MPs using their position in parliament to push their own beliefs and agenda rather than representing their electorate? This is why we need separation of church and state.
James / March 26 2012 9:48pm
Quick game of spot the logical fallacy anyone? a la Skeptics Guide?
David / March 26 2012 10:04pm
They seem to miss the point of science. Science isn't there to disprove things it's their to prove things to be true. Therefore it shouldn't be on science to have to prove that prayer doesn't heal, instead the Christians should have to prove beyond all doubt that prayer does heal. And no, well it fixed my right hand one time, is definitely not enough.
Tom bowler / March 26 2012 10:20pm
From his web site http://www.garystreeter.co.uk/
"Feb 1, 2012
Message from Gary
On Thursday 2nd February 2012 I am going into Derriford Hospital for a hip replacement operation, so I shall be out of action for a little while. My office will still be functioning as usual and I will be holding telephone surgeries. I will still be answering e-mails and letters of course. I hope you will bear with us during this short period and I expect to be up and running again (literally) within a few weeks."
Shouldnt he be praying rather than relying on doctors.
JT Wirral / March 26 2012 10:23pm
When it comes to Christianity, there is very little tolerance in our society.
I am sure that these 3 MPs would agree that proof and faith are opposites. They are making a request that our society make room for their beliefs in the way that it has made room for other beliefs and lifestyles.
Most Christians would accept that we should not seek to impose our views on others, and would like some of that tolerance in return to practice our beliefs. People are quick to comment on the less tolerant Christians that they may / may not have encountered in real life, but that would be a generalisation, a stereotype.
Muslims, Christians, Jews, Pagans and practitioners of other religions should be free to express their faith, just as agnostics and atheists should be free to express that they disagree.
We just shouldn't need the ASA to get involved.
Unless the leaflet specifically encourages the abandonment of medical treatment (and I think it would have been reported if it had), then anyone reading it can make their own decision about the offer of prayer.
Posturing aside, do we really want a society where no one offers to help anyone? Must the motive be ridiculed so much?
It may not be the help that you personally would want, but why should the offer offend so much? Some of the comments here have been unnecessarily aggressive. Has live and let live died?
No doubt there will be a torrent of scathing and mocking replies - but these MPs and the producers of the leaflets are just exercising their freedom of speech. They're not inciting hatred or impeaching anyone's human rights.
If people get so het up about this issue, then we are truly lucky to live in a country where we don't have more to worry about.
Daniel Flynn / March 26 2012 10:33pm
"I would be the first to accept that prayed for people do not always get healed, but sometimes they do"
Therefore it would be irresponsible to advertise prayer in such a way that people might choose to pray rather than take the advice of a doctor, in case the person that takes that advice is one of the unlucky ones for whom prayer does not work and they die of a preventable illness.
Also http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/health/2002901053_pray31.html this is not a new thing
Nick Woodley / March 26 2012 10:44pm
Dangerous idea this. The power of prayer has no more power to heal a coma patient than yelling at them. On the plus side I have some snake oil I need to get rid of.
James / March 26 2012 10:54pm
If a god did care for humanity then he would intervene in cases such as disease, poverty and natural disaster. Which he doesn't. If however he "gave us free will" (which, if he's omniscient, he really hasn't) which stops him from intervening in those cases then why would praying help? Aside from that the ASA have no obligation to disprove the claim, much like if I said I had the powers of super man, it should be up to me to prove that. Not the other way round.
Sam / March 26 2012 10:59pm
All praise the flying spaghetti monster! We are all touched by his noodley appendage!
Simon Blake / March 26 2012 11:00pm
The ASA only have to wave a copy of Richard Dawkins' book The God Delusion under their noses. In it is a report of a medical trial which, although conducted by a devout Christian doctor, proved that prayer had no effect on the group who did not know that they were being prayed for, compared to those who were not prayed for, and in fact it had an adverse effect on the recovery of patients who knew that prayers were being said for them.
Liam / March 26 2012 11:03pm
It's not really a case of people having to prove whether divine healing works or not. Ultimately, no one can ever fully prove through proof and evidence the power of prayer and divine healing and whether it works or not, e.g. in the case of Muamba, whether he has got better purely through medicine, doctors etc, or that God has used these methods as an instrument to heal him.
Many people have been healed through divine healing with medical assistance and would testify to that (including Gary Streeter), but you can never fully proof or disproof this happening. God doesn't always click his fingers for something to happen, he uses wordly methods too. Based on this logic, people who say 'People who believe in prayer should rely on it solely, and not medical help' are just foolish and a bit ignorant.
At the end of the day, we live in a country that allows free speech, and that has to relate to religion as well. If people want to believe in divine healing, then that's their choice. If they don't, they don't.
Simon Blake / March 26 2012 11:18pm
Gary Streeter recently had a hip operation... why did he not just pray to get better?
JCStage / March 26 2012 11:28pm
Surely evidence being anecdotal doesn't mean it is inadmissible? The highlighted Christians in Bath believe God can heal, and no doubt they base that on instances they have experienced or seen themselves where a person's physical health condition has significantly changed as a result of prayer, when it was not otherwise expected to change. Gary Streeter refers to such an experience in his own life. I know of two similar instances in people who were very close to me. I am very happy that biological systems can repair themselves (imagine if grazed knees, paper cuts, shaving nicks, broken bones, headaches, etc accumulated and never got better!) and that medicines / medical procedures can help that process, but I also believe in God, not in a woolly or wishful thinking kind of way, but in a logical, evidential and utterly convinced kind of way. Wouldn't a God who cannot heal be more impotent than omnipotent? Back to my original point - not liking the evidence doesn't invalidate it. You might not believe it, but that's a choice. You could be mistaken, and it's probable that anyone who has experienced first hand a significant positive and medically unexpected improvement in their physical health when someone prayed that God would heal them would consider that you were.
PaulJ / March 26 2012 11:32pm
"Gary Streeter (Con), Gavin Shuker (Lab) and Tim Farron (Lib Dem) say that they want the Advertising Standards Authority to produce "indisputable scientific evidence" to say that prayer does not work - otherwise they will raise the issue in Parliament."
And I want indisputable scientific evidence that the invisible pink unicorn does not exist and that the government are not
spraying tranquilisers into the air using chem-trails and that Messrs Streeter, Shuker and Farron are not twelve-foot tall lizard aliens in disguise — otherwise I will raise these issues with Deepak Chopra. (If David Icke happens not to be available.)
Jessica Catley / March 26 2012 11:43pm
I'd just like to say to everyone who is saying that christians should have to prove that god can heal, there are hundreds of thousands of testimonies out there of people who have been healed by god. I myself have been healed by him, i was nearly a cripple unable to walk at times from severe back pain due to lack of fluid between my vertebrae and muscle spasms, the doctors had said there was nothing they could do for me and could only supply pain killers. I was healed one night two years ago after prayer from my church, and i have never experienced any pain since in my back, the doctors have no idea what happened, and every single one had to admit it was god who had healed me as there was no other explanation. I also have known people healed from allergies, blindness, diabetes, deafness, and i have seen a woman walk who hadnt walked for 20 years. You cannot say that these healings are not true, and that should be enough proof for anyone that god can heal. If a Muslim can adverties Allah, why cant a Christian adverties God? We are a Christian country still so there should be no laws agaisnt Christianity, and it is breaking human rights of being able to express yourself.
Hannah / March 27 2012 12:12am
I'm not stupid, neither am I brain washed, and I would like to think I do not pose a threat to society...
...however, I have seen someone get prayed for and watched their legs even up in length, I have seen the shock on a man's face who after receiving prayer could hear in his right ear for the first time in over 40 years, and I have received healing for a skin complaint on my hands that completely disappeared within 36 hours after years of suffering.
Read what they say. They are not saying that prayer always works, they are not saying people should not seek medical help - but just that it *can* work - and that people should be allowed to try. Even if it only works once in a hundred attempts, surely it is worth it for that person that gets better?
Carl Pierce / March 27 2012 12:13am
I thought Tim Fallon had more sense.
Their letter is just plain stupid.
Are they really saying that people should be allowed to make any claims they want in ADs without evidence. It would be open season on the vulnerable desperate for a cure.
Why does their God never cure amputees.
Pathetic and very sad that these dangerous idiots are in parliament.
Science1-God0 / March 27 2012 12:24am
There have been studies conducted to measure the effectiveness of prayer, i recall it was a U.S. Religious sponsored double-Blinded proper jobbie. The results? Prayer does not help, in fact it does the opposite. Patients who knew they were being prayed for had a worse recovery rate! So, lets have the Christians PRoVE it does work. Thats how the laws in the UK work
Locker / March 27 2012 12:34am
You want scientific proof that prayer doesn't work? No problem. Look at all the people who DON'T win the lottery despite their prayers.
Olly / March 27 2012 12:48am
Shouldn't the questions be: What scientific research and evidence do you have that god & prayer CAN heal??
I have never heard a more ridiculous statement.
Richard / March 27 2012 12:54am
1. I don't see how it is assumed that prayer is being suggested as a substitute for medical treatment. Most people get prayed for in addition to such, in my experience.
2. Using science to prove or disprove the effectiveness of prayer is a non-starter. We can hardly expect God to condescend to be a lab-rat, moreover, scince only really works best where there are clear underlying rules and repeatable results. Why do we always expect science to provide all the answers, when it has its limitations?
Tim Windsor Brown / March 27 2012 9:36am
As an engineer, I take logical reasoning very seriously.
As a Christian I take Jesus very seriously, and have personally witnessed dozens of people healed of some serious illnesses and injuries, including broken arms, life-threatening allergies and partial deafness. I've NEVER seen these same Christians discourage the incredible work of our doctors & nurses, and know plenty of Christians who work in healthcare...even when they've witnessed people being healed.
Also the Christian who wrote Luke (in the Bible) was a doctor so I don't think you should associate Christian healing and denying medical care without some evidence.
Phil Thane / March 27 2012 10:01am
Haven't they noticed that other therapies have to prove they work before they can be advertised? Muamba's survival is more likely due to him receiving expert attention within seconds and swift transfer to a specialist heart unit.
Tim bucket / March 27 2012 10:07am
We live in worrying times indeed if our elected officials can hold such thoughts. More so their use of position to push for an over turning. Fanatics come in all forms and we stand on the edge of a trend where we follow the ludicrous path America has taken.
Sir Brave Hidesbehindapseudonym / March 27 2012 10:15am
Don't worry about your cancer, just pray and it will go away.
Do these guys run the country?
If I were them I'd be better employed praying that the economy doesn't collapse around our ears.
stephen jackson / March 27 2012 10:22am
Derek North - You're point is flawed in that it assumes they're wrong which is yet to be tested.
Jules - Its actually quite a big step, just like the existence of paracetamol doesn't assume to removal of aspirin. And if you actually look at the scientific testing that has happened with prayer, you'll see that they were all "inconclusive" because the scientists carrying them out were trying to disprove prayer, which their tests didn't allow to conclude.
Dave Page - that's just wrong
anarchic teapot - St Saviours Church, The Meadows, Nottingham. Bring any illness or ailment you like! God is big :)
To all - The media has told you that prayer doesn't work. Test it for yourselves! God loves you all and will show himself to you if you ask.
Alan Henness / March 27 2012 10:28am
Hannah said:
"I have seen someone get prayed for and watched their legs even up in length"
It's a common parlour trick that anyone can do - it's certainly nothing to do with any god, nor is it a miracle! It's a con trick done mainly by fund-raising christians in the US preying (not praying!) on the vulnerable. There are some good videos on youtube that explain how it's done.
Philip C James / March 27 2012 11:04am
These three MPs are in danger of saying something negative about the qualifications of Parliament to make sensible, rational, scientifically peer-reviewed and statistically significant evidence-based decisions on our behalf. And we wouldn't want people to get the wrong impression, would we...
Alan Henness / March 27 2012 11:14am
Jessica Catley said:
"I'd just like to say to everyone who is saying that christians should have to prove that god can heal, there are hundreds of thousands of testimonies out there of people who have been healed by god. I myself have been healed by him"
The rules covering advertising are the ones set by the ASA. They, rightly, do not accept testimonials as evidence, because there is no way of verifying their veracity.
The ASA's rules clearly state that an advertiser must hold robust evidence for a claim at the time they make that claim and that they must pass it to the ASA in the event of a complaint.
These rules apply to people claiming they can heal as much as it does to double-glazing salespersons or ads for washing powder.
If the advertiser can't supply the evidence robust enough to substantiate a claim they have made, they lose the adjudication. In the case of HOTS, they didn't supply any evidence, so they lose and were told not to repeat the claim.
Philip C James / March 27 2012 11:16am
These people are not going to acknowledge scientific evidence that prayer makes no statistically significant difference to healing.
They will claim that God skewed the study, refusing to cure those prayed for because His worship depends on Faith and Believe is the antithesis of Proof. Or that there were other people in the world who were praying for them, or the Control Group, so no difference could possibly be observed.
We cannot win in a debate between one side that bases argument on evidence and another side that bases argument on faith...
Nick / March 27 2012 11:26am
If crystal healers, homeopaths and peddlars of other rubbish can tell people it works, why shouldn't people be able to distribute a leaflet which quite clearly says "We believe...".? If people want to pray, let them, for goodness sake. And if they want to spend their money telling us they think it works, who are we to stop them? If nothing else, prayer may provide people with peace of mind and stress relief, which may in itself provide genuine health benefits.
Paul / March 27 2012 12:14pm
Isn't politics in enough trouble right now without letting religious zealots out of the box? What next? perhaps god can consolidate my debts or change a flat tyre, all through prayer. These men aere meant to have the interests opf a nation at heart with such claims made in these letters I have to question their ability to do the job impartially.
Paul / March 27 2012 12:23pm
Isn't politics in enough trouble right now without letting religious zealots out of the box? What next? perhaps god can consolidate my debts or change a flat tyre, all through prayer. These men aere meant to have the interests opf a nation at heart with such claims made in these letters I have to question their ability to do the job impartially.
Alan Henness / March 27 2012 1:39pm
Nick said:
"If crystal healers, homeopaths and peddlars of other rubbish can tell people it works, why shouldn't people be able to distribute a leaflet which quite clearly says "We believe...".?"
I understand that opinion - clearly stated as such - is perfectly allowed under the ASA's rules. It's when claims are made that are stated as if they are facts that is the problem.
"If people want to pray, let them, for goodness sake."
No one is stopping anyone praying. The ASA adjudication was about the claims to cure medical conditions.
"And if they want to spend their money telling us they think it works, who are we to stop them? If nothing else, prayer may provide people with peace of mind and stress relief, which may in itself provide genuine health benefits."
Possibly, but HOTS provided no evidence of any kind to substantiate their claims.
Anthea Disney / March 27 2012 1:42pm
God does heal today and every day-so what is the issue???Prehaps those people who are unaware iof this should ask God for a healing and see what happens!!!!!Alternatively ask some one like Jenny Rees Larcombe who was in a wheel chair and was healed. There are many other people who have had a miraculous touch from God..
Bonzodog / March 27 2012 1:51pm
So what about all the other victims of coronary heart disease for whom prayer obviously didn't work ......?
Loons
Su Convy / March 27 2012 2:21pm
A man in the church I attend was healed from cancer. The medics could find no trace of it when they scanned the site in preparation for surgery.
I have witnessed other healings over the years - some instant and some gradual. All those people had seen doctors, so the results were verifiable.
Su Convy / March 27 2012 2:37pm
A man in the church I attend was healed from cancer. The medics could find no trace of it when they scanned the site in preparation for surgery.
I have witnessed other healings over the years - some instant and some gradual. All those people had seen doctors, so the results were verifiable. Not all people are healed, however, so silly talk about not need ing the NHS should be discouraged. God also heals through the caring hands of doctors and nurses, ciropractors and Bowen practitioners... plus many more.
Joel Hume / March 27 2012 2:54pm
Brilliant, people need to know the truth that God is real and he can heal. He created the universe in six days, so a little healing is easy for him!
For those arguing against, why are you so passionately against God's existence? Give him a chance and he'll prove to you that he's real. My friend who is (well was) wheat intolerant was prayed for the other day is now eating normal toast and cookies. Science can't explain that but faith can!
Leonard Woodrow / March 27 2012 3:04pm
It is an unfortunate fact that many otherwise intelligent people can be misled into believing such nonsense.
Those who are aware of this fact can only continue to point out how silly the belief is, and hope the light will dawn on them eventually.
Ian / March 27 2012 3:29pm
Sue Convy, there are many instances of spontaneous remission of illness that leave the medical fraternity wondering why this happens. The fact that it does, without any apparent reason, means that we currently lack the knowledge as to the reason why, not that some invisible deity, of which there is no evidence, intervened for some reason. This is just another episode in the 'god of the gaps' argument.
A friend of mine who just happens to be a Reiki practitioner claimed some time ago that my very painful shoulder got better because she sent some healing down the telephone whilst we were having a conversation. This is just as viable an argument as 'god did it'. I don't believe it was either but I was just glad that the pain had gone.
Louise / March 27 2012 4:34pm
I had excruciating pain in my sholder and down my arm following a car accident, physio didn't help. I received lots of prayer for healing, nothing happened, I continued physio, pain got worse and physio gave up, months later I was healed as I received Holy Communion. Sometimes things happen we don't understand and we shouldn't be so quick to dismiss them. God is out there, he dooesn't always heal but I know he sometimes can. Even people who are not healed are often very encouraged by prayer. Nobody is forcing this on anyone, free country?
Graham / March 27 2012 5:10pm
@Joel Hume:
"For those arguing against, why are you so passionately against God's existence? Give him a chance and he'll prove to you that he's real." - Several thousand years, and we're still waiting.
"My friend who is (well was) wheat intolerant was prayed for the other day is now eating normal toast and cookies. Science can't explain that but faith can!" - Actually, it wasn't your God who cured your friend's wheat intolerance. It was me. I did it, and you can't prove otherwise. And don't bother asking me how I cured him or her, or to prove that I know your friend. I don't have to. You just have to have faith, or prove that I DIDN'T do it.
There. Simple, isn't it?
martyn leech / March 27 2012 6:09pm
I myself have received healing in a vertebrate in by back put in place and my repair of my frozen shoulder. This does not make me a fanatic just someone who believes. How would the scientists like their beliefs illegal to be shown
Bob / March 27 2012 6:20pm
It amazes me that so many people on here harp on about there being no scientific proof of God, yet will probably believe in the existence of aliens for which again there is no scientific proof. They seem also forgetfull that Christianity is a faith not a science, and hence by being a faith it is something that you believe in without the need for scientific evidence.
Alan Henness / March 27 2012 7:23pm
Anthea Disney said:
"God does heal today and every day-so what is the issue???Prehaps those people who are unaware iof this should ask God for a healing and see what happens!!!!!Alternatively ask some one like Jenny Rees Larcombe who was in a wheel chair and was healed. There are many other people who have had a miraculous touch from God.."
If you choose to believe that, then that's entirely up to you. No one is trying to take your beliefs away from you. However, the problem arises when people who do believe this try to tell others and make claims that they can be healed/cured/helped when they have no robust evidence for their claims. Anecdotes, their beliefs (no matter how fervently and honestly held) are wholly inadequate.
We have rules and laws to help protect possibly vulnerable people from being led to believe their medical conditions can be treated - this can delay someone seeking proper medical advice for what might be a serious, yet perfectly treatable condition.
Ruti / March 27 2012 7:30pm
I think there are a lot of double standards flying about - the alternative medicine / therapy market has been going on for years, pretty much unchallenged, but if a Christian claims that God heals, the ASA gets wheeled out! Furthermore, the NHS is happy to embrace Yoga and promote all sorts of alternative medicine, but if a nurse wears a cross or offers to pray, they can get sacked. An equal opps society where equality very much depends on the group which you belong to.
The bottom line is that we are spirit soul and body. There is shed loads of anecdotal evidence in terms of prayer, deliverance and healing. It is true not everyone gets healed and there are many, many reasons for that (check out beinhealth.com for a few pointers) the primary reason being the unhealthy state of the UK church. I think there has been little research into Christian healing BECAUSE the majority of people in the west do not believe in a spiritual side to life - however, this is far from true worldwide.
For those who would like to see healing take place, check out Church of His Presence or the Bayoftheholyspiritrevival.com
Incidentally, there are also huge financial interests in oiling the NHS machine, with many drug companies and employees benefiting enormously.
Yes, alongside the genuine, you will also find fakes, (the bible even warns about that) but that does not mean the genuine does not exist. Incidentally the bible, a widespread publication cites in several places about Gods healing ability. I wonder if the ASA is looking to ban that and the Torah too? I haven't seen them chasing too many Gurus, nor dealing with the NHS for their promotion of Yoga (which is Hinduism incidentally), hypnotism, acupuncture and other 'therapies'.
Adam Longfield / March 27 2012 8:47pm
Good on them for speaking up for their beliefs. I too know of countless times where God has healed people even through my own prayer. God is a real and living God who cares about us. I'm not saying that we see every prayer for healing answered straight away but I believe that this is down to our own faith and belief. I know that poorer countries do see more healing not sure whether that is down to a total trust in God or not and I'm not saying that we should not seek medical adivce because obviously countless life's are saved through this!
All I know is that Jesus lived, died and rose again for me and that he is real and personal and not just in an airy fairy way but actually talking to us in detail. If its evidence that is wanted it can definitely be provided but in the end it is about faith and having faith in God. All I know is that if you sincerely ask God to show himself in your life he will in a real and personal way. Try it! I dare you :)
Ian / March 27 2012 9:18pm
Evidence for healing as a result of prayer? Plenty. You might call it mind over matter or divine healing but prayer works. Seen it, done it.
How come no-one is stopping 'mediums' from advertising their shows and making thousands of pounds? I guess it's because Christians don't charge for prayer and are just 'misguided do-gooders'.
As for healing prayer not always working - well when you go to the doctor are you always healed. And if you aren't does that 'prove' that medicine is worthless?
Incidentally, Christians believe that doctors and nurses are also God given and that there are many ways in which people can be healed.
And as for harm. Could you please enlighten me on how praying for someone does them harm? All those that are prayed for are told categorically not to stop taking mediication and that not everyone is healed.
I'm a scientist and know all about evidence. But we can never prove anything absolutely. We look for evidence to see whether our theory is supported or not. I believe the evidence of my own eyes which supports the theory that God heals. I see some evidence that does not support that theory when people are not healed. Thus my conclusion is that God heals - sometimes. Why? Ah, now that is another debate entirely...
Roddy Neilson / March 27 2012 9:51pm
Streeter, Shuker and Farron should be ashamed of themselves. For their information:
1) If prayer worked there would be no disease or illness.
2) Science works - look at the evidence
3) There is no reproducible, scientifically validated experiment or trial that has shown any medical benefit from Christian belief compared to none.
The arrogance, stupidity and intellectual blindness of this trio appals me.
Sarah / March 27 2012 10:10pm
I just looked down the comments to see all these people saying "why don't you find evidence that prayer can heal". It's really not that hard to find evidence. I myself know of many people who's medical records have the words "miracle" and "unknown cure" in. People you pass in the street, people at work or college or school, they may have been healed but you just don't know about it.
And as for "why do people need medical intervention when they've already been healed by God before?" Well sometimes that's what God wants us to do. Why would he have created it otherwise? Sometimes, it's not just an everyday cold people ask for healing, it's for incurable diseases. Also, God isn't going to heal us if we will not realise why, or if we want healing for wrong reasons. He knows what's best for us!
Cathy / March 28 2012 12:34am
That's fantastic. Well done MP's!
Alan Henness / March 28 2012 12:53am
Ruti said:
"I think there are a lot of double standards flying about - the alternative medicine / therapy market has been going on for years, pretty much unchallenged"
It's a long slow process challenging the misleading claims of atl med, but were making progress: see www.nightingale-collaboration.org
"but if a Christian claims that God heals, the ASA gets wheeled out!"
No. The advertiser, HOTS, not God, made claims about healing. Someone complained to the ASA as is their right and the ASA investigated - that's what the ASA are there for.
"Furthermore, the NHS is happy to embrace Yoga and promote all sorts of alternative medicine, but if a nurse wears a cross or offers to pray, they can get sacked. An equal opps society where equality very much depends on the group which you belong to."
It's unfortunate that there are any unproven or disproven CAM in the NHS, paid for by the taxpayer, but there is some evidence that some yoga exercises can have some benefit. However, the topic here is the ASA's adjudication about an advert and the response by some christian MPs, not employment policy or equality rights.
Alan Henness / March 28 2012 1:01am
martyn leech said:
"I myself have received healing in a vertebrate in by back put in place and my repair of my frozen shoulder. This does not make me a fanatic just someone who believes. How would the scientists like their beliefs illegal to be shown"
The ASA's remit covers claims made to the public my marketers. If a marketer makes a claim, they must hold robust evidence for that claim. That's as it should be to protect the public from misleading claims.
Phil / March 28 2012 2:49am
How many of the people who comment, have spent time checking if there is any evidence for supernatural healing? Or is it there such a thing as atheist dogma in the same way there is religious dogma.
Test God not by looking where He is NOT doing stuff but where He IS doing stuff.
http://www.ibethel.org/testimonies
http://bayrevival.org/
Charlotte Clarke / March 28 2012 8:14am
My goodness, do people on here really think you have to be thick to believe in God? That would explain why there are so many Christians at our top universities of course, as students and staff. Some research that came out recently actually suggested that the higher you go up the intelligence scale the more people believe. How can it possibly be dangerous to have faith? And it's ridiculous to suggest that it's a small step from this to "don't bother with doctors, just pray". No responsible person of faith would ever suggest that, but why shouldn't you pray as well? Surely it can't do any harm?
Andy Robinson / March 28 2012 8:17am
There are stories with medical support of healing by prayer. Here is one - http://vimeo.com/9882826
Reg Haslett / March 28 2012 9:15am
God has supernaturally intervened a significant number of times in my life over the past 40 years. I can produce precise details, exact times and other relevant information to substantiate the previous sentence. (Available on request)
Dr R J Haslett
Tim / March 28 2012 9:38am
Answer this:
whywontgodhealamputees.com
Gary, with his 'bit of a sore hand' disgusts me.
cnocspeireag / March 28 2012 10:01am
Well done Derek North. All they do is to demonstrate their own lack of logic and education. Anyone on the outside will assume that you have to be an idiot to be a Xtian. Intelligent Xtians should be outraged.
Stuart / March 28 2012 2:12pm
I can't believe the level of cynicism and hatred here. It far outweighs any 'stupidity' on the part of these politicians. Evidence is still something we have to have some 'faith' in and the fact that they thought Einstein may have been wrong recently is testament to that!
I think the ad campaign is distasteful and I disagree with it but I thought we lived in a country where free speech was possible? Why is it that whenever people with spiritual beliefs articulate them (inarticulately or not), they are shot down?
The Advertising industry is full of distasteful, morally reprehensible face creams and insistence that you sue your employer, so will one more dubious advert really tip the balance? I'd rather have this than the kind of censorship people seem to be proposing.
Let's face it, as a society, we hate fundamentalist Christians because that's where we were 150 years ago and it's a bit like looking at a photo of your former self with a dodgy haircut. But you can get Reiki on the NHS as complementary therapy. How different is that?
Really, is it necessary to persecute anyone as soon as they believe in something spiritual or supernatural? That's what appalls me most about this. Not even the advertising campaign, which, as I said, I disagree with.
Phil O / March 28 2012 2:13pm
OK, this is crazy, as are almost all the comments here. If you're a Christian, you sincerely believe this to be true and if not, then so what. They weren't advocating that you don't take medicine or don't need to take medicine, so really, what harm is being caused? The whole point about faith is that it's not provable - if you know anything of the relationship and free choice that God purports to want for us and with us as outlined in the bible, you know that a provable faith would be a complete waste of time. So, if God does exist, somehow I don't think he'd allow himself to be experimented on, so the argument that Christians should prove it is as dumb as telling non-Christians to disprove it. You can't mix science and religion based solely on the rules of science. If God exists, he made the rules and can break them as he wishes, so reverse applying science to prove or disprove God or God's efficacy is again, a complete nonsense. His existence is a matter of faith and personal exploration/choice and I'd suggest that within the context that these adverts were made, they're really not doing any harm.
Stuart / March 28 2012 3:04pm
I can't believe the level of cynicism and hatred here. It far outweighs any 'stupidity' on the part of these politicians. Evidence is still something we have to have some 'faith' in and the fact that they thought Einstein may have been wrong recently is testament to that!
I think the ad campaign is distasteful and I disagree with it but I thought we lived in a country where free speech was possible? Why is it that whenever people with spiritual beliefs articulate them (inarticulately or not), they are shot down?
The Advertising industry is full of distasteful, morally reprehensible face creams and insistence that you sue your employer, so will one more dubious advert really tip the balance? I'd rather have this than the kind of censorship people seem to be proposing.
Let's face it, as a society, we hate fundamentalist Christians because that's where we were 150 years ago and it's a bit like looking at a photo of your former self with a dodgy haircut. But you can get Reiki on the NHS as complementary therapy. How different is that?
Really, is it necessary to persecute anyone as soon as they believe in something spiritual or supernatural? That's what appalls me most about this. Not even the advertising campaign, which, as I said, I disagree with.
Roger Pearse / March 28 2012 3:11pm
'It's a small step from this to "you don't need an NHS, you just need to pray harder"...'
No, it isn't. That's the exact reverse of the situation, and you know it well.
Don't endorse state interference in Christianity. It's a sick nation that can't leave a sandwichboardman to parade up and down with a sign saying "prepare to meet thy god" without calling the police.
Stuart / March 28 2012 3:33pm
I can't believe the level of cynicism and hatred here. It far outweighs any 'stupidity' on the part of these politicians. Evidence is still something we have to have some 'faith' in and the fact that they thought Einstein may have been wrong recently is testament to that!
I think the ad campaign is distasteful and I disagree with it but I thought we lived in a country where free speech was possible? Why is it that whenever people with spiritual beliefs articulate them (inarticulately or not), they are shot down?
The Advertising industry is full of distasteful, morally reprehensible face creams and insistence that you sue your employer, so will one more dubious advert really tip the balance? I'd rather have this than the kind of censorship people seem to be proposing.
Let's face it, as a society, we hate fundamentalist Christians because that's where we were 150 years ago and it's a bit like looking at a photo of your former self with a dodgy haircut. But you can get Reiki on the NHS as complementary therapy. How different is that?
Really, is it necessary to persecute anyone as soon as they believe in something spiritual or supernatural? That's what appalls me most about this. Not even the advertising campaign, which, as I said, I disagree with.
Alan Henness / March 28 2012 3:45pm
Roger Pearse said:
"Don't endorse state interference in Christianity. It's a sick nation that can't leave a sandwichboardman to parade up and down with a sign saying "prepare to meet thy god" without calling the police."
The state isn't interfering in christianity - an advertiser made some claims in an advert to the public about healing that he wasn't able to substantiate when asked for evidence by the ASA. It has nothing to do with people believing in whatever they want and no police were called. Don't turn this into something it isn't.
Arthur Goode / March 28 2012 3:52pm
There are hundreds of instances of healing by Jesus in the gospels, and he told his followers to do the same, which they have done for the past 2000 years and are still doing today. Normal Christian life and clearly very offensive to many, but not to be legislated against, or are we to ban the Bible for false claims as well?
Phil O / March 28 2012 4:19pm
OK, this is crazy, as are almost all the comments here. If you're a Christian, you sincerely believe this to be true and if not, then so what. They weren't advocating that you don't take medicine or don't need to take medicine, so really, what harm is being caused? The whole point about faith is that it's not provable - if you know anything of the relationship and free choice that God purports to want for us and with us as outlined in the bible, you know that a provable faith would be a complete waste of time. So, if God does exist, somehow I don't think he'd allow himself to be experimented on, so the argument that Christians should prove it is as dumb as telling non-Christians to disprove it. You can't mix science and religion based solely on the rules of science. If God exists, he made the rules and can break them as he wishes, so reverse applying science to prove or disprove God or God's efficacy is again, a complete nonsense. His existence is a matter of faith and personal exploration/choice and I'd suggest that within the context that these adverts were made, they're really not doing any harm.
Alan Henness / March 28 2012 4:32pm
Arthur Goode said:
"There are hundreds of instances of healing by Jesus in the gospels, and he told his followers to do the same, which they have done for the past 2000 years and are still doing today."
Perhaps there is, but this has nothing to do with an advertiser today making claims about healing and producing the bible in evidence isn't going to convince the ASA. For very good reasons, testimonials and anecdotes are insufficient evidence.
"Normal Christian life and clearly very offensive to many, but not to be legislated against, or are we to ban the Bible for false claims as well?"
Who is trying to legislate against what someone believes? The bible isn't an advert, so it's not covered by the ASA, is it?
Dr Stephen J. Warren / March 28 2012 5:08pm
I am a NHS GP with a post at the Peninsula School of Medicine and Dentistry. I run a special study unit on the history of modern medicine from a Christian perspective. It is an ill understood fact that the vast majority of breakthroughs in medicine were by dedicated Christian men and women who pioneered with divine providence. In the case of healing today, my understanding is that many Christians think that supernatural healing is the only genuine article. In the case of Muamba it is the combination of modern medicine with the bended knee for which we are all grateful.
Simon Abraham Smythe / March 28 2012 5:35pm
If 'prayers heal', so should 'curses kill'!
That would make ALL the 'supporters of prayer-superstition'
also the supporters of 'VooDoo' & witch-craft!
This exposes the absurdity of all argument in support of 'healing by prayer'.
In reality, ‘stripped to bare bone' (pun intended), Christianity is a cult not only supporting human sacrifice [of god’s ‘firstborn’], but retrospectively participating in it by way of ‘transubstantiation’ [‘believing to drink JC’s blood and flesh’] and advertising display of an ancient instrument of torture – the cross.
Such cannibalistic cults ought to be banned!
Alan Henness / March 28 2012 5:37pm
Dr Stephen J. Warren said:
"I am a NHS GP with a post at the Peninsula School of Medicine and Dentistry. I run a special study unit on the history of modern medicine from a Christian perspective. It is an ill understood fact that the vast majority of breakthroughs in medicine were by dedicated Christian men and women who pioneered with divine providence."
I have no idea whether or not the vast majority of breakthroughs in medicine were made by christians, but I'd be interested to see your evidence of that. But it's not really that long ago when it was difficult to call yourself anything other than a christian.
Of course, it would be even more difficult to provide evidence that divine providence had anything to do with those breakthroughs.
"In the case of healing today, my understanding is that many Christians think that supernatural healing is the only genuine article."
What they believe is entirely up to them - just don't make advertising claims they don't have the necessary evidence for.
"In the case of Muamba it is the combination of modern medicine with the bended knee for which we are all grateful."
How do you know it wasn't just the fact he is a young, extremely fit man who had first class medical attention that ensured he is still alive?
DAVID H SMITH / March 28 2012 7:11pm
The outpouring of prayer was evident over Fabrice Muamba. What a remarkable life changing recovery.
Who were all these people praying to? Do atheists never pray? I suppose not, as for them there is nobody to answer their prayers.
Faith is a wonderful part of divine believe for people who have experienced the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
Punjabeen UK / March 28 2012 8:39pm
please is this really making news ... have we got nothing better to do ... and ho this is a Christian country all another faith are welcomed in our country with an understanding of tolerance that this is a Christian nation and by defacto the law is Christian based . might be interesting to see what the faith of the chap who band this add was ... could be a fire starter
Paul Coyne / March 28 2012 9:22pm
It's not christian prayer that healed Fabrice Muamba. I had a herd of cattle slaughtered. That didn't work, but then I sacrificed 50 virgins and that seemed to do the trick. It's clearly very important to kill the appropriate ritual victim for the medical condition in hand in order to work magic.
Steve Hamilton / March 28 2012 10:01pm
Pray doesn't work all the time. But we all have one gift we can accept from God, the gift of grace. I wish pray did work all the time. But who would be god if it did? Accepting grace and knowing Gods love is more important to me than having all my prays answered in the way I want them to. Gods grace is the greatest gift we can all accept in to our life's no matter where we are.
Margaret Rowlands / March 28 2012 10:25pm
ask the people who have been healed - i AM ONE OF THEM.
Iain / March 28 2012 11:11pm
How dare you credit god for the recovery of Muamba when clearly the expert medical attention was the cause. How arrogant and absurd.
Alan Henness / March 29 2012 12:33am
Punjabeen said:
"this is a Christian nation and by defacto the law is Christian based ."
The UK is neither a christian country nor are its laws christian based per se.
"might be interesting to see what the faith of the chap who band this add was ... could be a fire starter"
Are you suggesting that the people (the adjudication is approved by the ASA's Council, not just one person) would let their religious beliefs (if any) sway them in applying the advertising Codes? If I was one of them, I would find your insinuations very insulting.
Alan Henness / March 29 2012 12:40am
Steve Hamilton said:
"Pray doesn't work all the time."
How would you convince someone that it works any time?
"But we all have one gift we can accept from God, the gift of grace. I wish pray did work all the time."
But who would your god listen to? Consider a war with both sides each praying to the same god for a crushing victory? Can all their prayers be answered?
"But who would be god if it did?"
Perhaps your god could at least answer all the prayers of those whose children will die tomorrow because of disease or lack of food? That might be quite a nice god.
"Accepting grace and knowing Gods love is more important to me than having all my prays answered in the way I want them to. Gods grace is the greatest gift we can all accept in to our life's no matter where we are."
You are entirely free to believe what you want, but this has nothing to do with the subject of the article.
Atarah / March 29 2012 8:21am
Some of the comments on here are so filled with resentment it's unreal. So the MPs are Christians who believe in healing from God... And... What? It seems to me that some non-religious people are able to ridicule and disrespect others opinions while they want there's to be heard. I think it's great those MPs have stood up for what they believe even at the expense of being ridiculed. At least they have a belief, a belief that even if YOU don't agree with, thousand/millions of others do- including myself.
Alan Henness / March 29 2012 12:01pm
Atarah said:
"Some of the comments on here are so filled with resentment it's unreal. So the MPs are Christians who believe in healing from God... And... What? It seems to me that some non-religious people are able to ridicule and disrespect others opinions while they want there's to be heard. I think it's great those MPs have stood up for what they believe even at the expense of being ridiculed. At least they have a belief, a belief that even if YOU don't agree with, thousand/millions of others do- including myself."
The ASA's decision has nothing to do with anyone's religious beliefs and it looks like these three MPs didn't bother to find out about the ASA's CAP Code (particularly about where the burden of proof lies), or understand the adjudication, or understand the remit of the ASA. The latter is particularly relevant when they ask what the ASA thinks of some event that happened some 30 years ago and what they think about articles in the media. It's the Advertising Standards Authority - there's a clue in their name that they seem to have completely missed.
The advertisers made claims about healing; someone complained to the ASA; the ASA investigated and asked the advertiser to provide evidence for the claims (as required by the CAP Code); the advertiser was not able to provide the evidence to substantiate the claims; the complaint is upheld.
The MPs have every right to say whatever they like, of course, but it's beholden on them (and I would have hoped entirely within the capabilities of an MP) to do a bit of research of their own into the ASA's rules first.
Tracey / March 29 2012 1:52pm
Damian Stayne is a Catholic Charismatic preacher who believes God has worked through him and his ministry to physically heal thousands of people worldwide. Damian says he has witnessed the blind see, the deaf hear and the lame walk through the power of Jesus.
http://www.channel4.com/programmes/4thoughttv/4od#3279830
There are too many who have genuinely been healed to be ignored. Scorn and derision won't change that.
Roy Beaumont / March 29 2012 3:49pm
About time someone stood up to this ridiculous example of Political Correctness! Well done
Nina Moody / March 29 2012 4:11pm
I was healed 25 years ago of a very painful back problem after a series of falls. I believe that God gave us doctors. I also believe that God heals. I went to the doctors. I was given strong pain relief, which rendered me incapable of functioning properly, so I only took them at night so that I could sleep. I was then given a steroid injection in the base of my spine which relieved the pain for a while, but then it returned spreading further up my back. I was prayed for and immediately the pain went and I have had no pain since.
Bess / March 29 2012 5:00pm
For all you cynics out there; I was healed from a brain haemorrage - having bled profusely in the operating room I was put on a life support machine. After some days they were discussing switching it off when someone came into the hospital and prayed, commanding the coma off me. I sat up in bed asked the person, whom I knew, some lucid questions, then lay down and slept. Since that time I have regained all my abilities which is a great joy. There are many testimonies of people being raised from the dead etc. Prayer does work but there has to be faith to receive - either yours or someone else's. Even the most cynical person can be touched where His Presence is. Blessings.
Alan Henness / March 29 2012 5:18pm
Roy Beaumont said:
"About time someone stood up to this ridiculous example of Political Correctness! Well done"
Are you saying advertisers should be able to say whatever they like and never be challenged to produce evidence for their claims?
Jerry Gosling / March 29 2012 6:16pm
I am appalled that there are so many out there who are simply afraid to accept that God exists and that he heals today. Well done to the three ministers who are prepared to stand I the face of such bigotted people and put the case for God. I too have been healed and my wife also there is no one out there who is going to stop me from declaring that God us real and that he heals today.It is a shame that there are so many sceptics out there who are either afraid of the truth or are simply blind to it. May God open your eyes.
Pam Austin / March 29 2012 8:18pm
I have been healed many times. I suffered for 6 years from severe stomach pain the doctors couldnt find out what was wrong, then I was diagnosed with kidney stones. I got prayed for in a healing service in church and have never had any pain since. My daughter was healed of a blood condition which was incurable, and caused her to go into anaphylactic shock and end up in A&E regularly. She was prayed for and the next blood test was clear. I also witnessed a lady who was in the same ward as myself, and had cancer and a very swollen abdomen, she was completely healed after prayer, and she was dying. There will always be skecptics but I know that my God heals today no matter what anyone says.
Mark W / March 30 2012 1:40am
Wow! So you can't say God heals? Can you say that the Bible says God heals? Or is that illegal too? Can you say that Jesus said believers shall "lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover" (Mark 16:15-18)? Can you say the Bible says "Is any sick among you? let him call for the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord: And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up; and if he have committed sins, they shall be forgiven him? (James 5:14-15)
Maybe we should note the fact that it says the prayer of faith, not just prayer, heals. How did the scientific studies measure that quantity?
Maybe it's illegal now to say "God saves"? Can we not advertise or teach that God saves? That if you obey his word you will receive eternal life, and if you do not you will perish? Can we not publish that Jesus "said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature. He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned"? (Mark 16:15-16) Is it illegal to say this too?
Is it illegal to advertise that God exists? Or that the Bible is his instruction to the world? Or that Christ is returning? Or to publish the teaching in any way that only those who are born again of water and the Spirit can enter the kingdom of God (John 3:5)? Do all such statements need scientific demonstration before they can be proclaimed? Life changing and extremely divisive as they are?
Can we print the Bible and hand it around, agreeing with its claims?
Good luck with stopping that! It's been tried. People, both secular and religious, have been fighting to ban these statements ever since they began to be spoken. Both the Bible and its preachers have been subject to a number of extermination attempts in history. But Jesus said "this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come" (Matthew 24:14). He certainly got the first half right.
Do a search for "Roy Wattchow" on YouTube and listen to his story. You won't find any scientific studies, but you'll hear about a number of miracles. Make your own mind up. Roy was my father. I don't need your studies, thanks.
Alan Henness / March 30 2012 10:37am
Mark W:
The answers to all your questions about what can be claimed in adverts is available on the ASA's website.
Maria / March 30 2012 11:05am
When I was 13, my 10-year-old cousin was diagnosed with leukemia. For the next years I watched him - not to mention his parents - suffer horribly as my extended family prayed fervently for his recovery. Was he healed? No, he died. 40 years later I am still astounded at the callous disregard displayed by some Christians for the feelings of all those who've been bereaved IN SPITE OF their desperate prayers. So it worked for "hundreds of thousands" of other people but not for an innocent 10-year-old, whose family loved him and would have done anything to save him?
If the claim made by this group that "God can heal today" were to be amended to "the God we believe in can heal today but he probably won't", I wouldn't object to it. As it stands, it is not only misleading but also deeply offensive to those of us whose personal experience gives the lie to it.
Maria / March 30 2012 2:57pm
When I was 13, my 10-year-old cousin was diagnosed with leukemia. For the next years I watched him - not to mention his parents - suffer horribly as my extended family prayed fervently for his recovery. Was he healed? No, he died. 40 years later I am still astounded at the callous disregard displayed by some Christians for the feelings of all those who've been bereaved IN SPITE OF their desperate prayers. So it worked for "hundreds of thousands" of other people but not for an innocent 10-year-old, whose family loved him and would have done anything to save him?
If the claim made by this group that "God can heal today" were to be amended to "the God we believe in can heal today but he probably won't", I wouldn't object to it. As it stands, it is not only misleading but also deeply offensive to those of us whose personal experience gives the lie to it.
Voltaire in Albion / March 30 2012 10:06pm
Just so that this does not descend into "you say/I say" debate, the scientific evidence these delusional MP's are asking about can be found here:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/16827626
Richard Acton / March 31 2012 1:12pm
I'm Sorry but this is just willfully ignorant, all they need do is google it to find a review all the best research into intercessory prayer by the worlds most reputable medical research reviewers; the Cochrane collaboration : http://www.jnrbm.com/content/8/1/7 which states clearly there is no correlation between prayer and healing. Cochrane said that long ago that they advised no more money be spent on this kind of research because by the standards of the industry they already had an overwhelming body of proof.
Andrew Whitman / April 05 2012 10:37am
I'm so glad to see some sense and fairness prevail in this ongoing debate! One minute it seems Christians are acting unfairly praying for people's welfare on the streets; the next even high-level footballers not renowned for their praying-habits are Tweeting we should (rightly!) pray for Fabrice Muamba. Make up your mind society!!! As for me, I salute you 3 MP's...........
The gospel should never be removed from the public 'marketplace' - neither should it be forced down people's throats either!
Sam N / April 12 2012 11:40pm
I'd personally love to come and pray for whoever needs healing. I've seen some stuff instantly healed before. I'm based in NI. Tweet me @JesusCanHeal
Lottie / June 10 2012 11:23pm
In 2010 we found out My dad had brain cancer and as a Christian family, we prayed and prayed that we would receive good news when it was discovered. However it was not to be & 8 weeks later my dad passed away......even as a christian who does pray, people like this make me think ...did my family not pray hard enough? Did our friends around the world and from other religions not pray enough? My Dad told us that 'it was just one of those things' and accepted that this was his time (so we prayed that he would not be in pain or suffer any more) so one orayer was answered i guess...If prayer healed everything I'm sure by now Cancer would be a thing if the past as many people (religious or not) pray to God that someone they loved didn't have it! Ideal world eh?
carol simmons / July 27 2012 1:02am
In 1994 I had a large grapefruit sized fibroid in my uterus, I went into wycombe general hospital and had biopsies/scans etc taken...the outcome was that i had a large fibroid 12-14 wks antiverted uterus....docs note .this lady would benefit from a complete hysterectomy..I wasn't a 'Christian', but asked some ladies to pray for me as I was frightened to have the op. they did and I FELT the fibroid shrink there and then, my stomach flattened visibly on the outside. I went to my GP in Beaconsfield next day and she could no longer feel the BIG lump in my abdomen, I paid next day for a scan at the Chiltern Hospital..The Consulant didn't believe that I had ever had a fibroid, my womb was normal size, he didn't understand what I was doing there!
On a Friday in summer 2003 I had a scan on my sinuses, the docs found a complete hole in my skull the size of a pound coin with a growth behind it. By Tues I was at Torbay hospital, allocated my very own Macmillan nurse, surrounded by a large oncology team, who explained that I very likely had bone cancer, at a late stage as it was the only explanation for the hole in my head. I told them, NO, my God is a Great Big God and he will not allow this (my belief, which I will not apologise for). I had to have a radio active bone scan the following Friday 13th ha ha, so they could find a secondary area to to take a biopsy from, the alternative was to try and go up my nose or peel back the skin and take a biopsy from my forehead,(not the preferred choice as growth was on near my brain ) eeuck. A guy I know came up to me (God told him too) and put his hand on my back, I felt a powerful surge through me. I knew I was healed as this was the second time I had physically experienced the power of God (I knew I was healed). I told everybody that I didn't think I had the hole in my head anymore (they all laughed at me, as I'm sure you are right now). Even my friend who is a GP told me that isn't possible..I even told the technician when I went for the bone scan that I didn't have the hole any more...He was very polite, but replied that they knew I had the hole as they had the scans to prove it. Guess what, the hole had been healed over in just a few days (I did have a bit of raised bony growth on the outside just like a bump, but that soon went down)! but nothing showed up on the scan! ......
I could go on and on telling you more and more healings that MY GREAT BIG GOD has given me, continuing to confound my docs... So please, think what you like, that is your prerogative, but you mustn't tell me I cannot say that GOD HEALS, 'cos I KNOW he does, and nobody will ever make me believe differently, as I was there, I lived it, docs were confounded, I had scans with photos to prove it.
carol simmons / July 29 2012 4:30pm
hi
can you tell me how long it takes to verify my comments?
they have not appeared yet!
thanks
carol
N Shelley / December 18 2012 3:00pm
God heals and there is undeniable proof that he does. The Christian group in Bath should ignore ASA and challenge then in court if called to do so!